What it's like as a prisoner of warfare in Russian fingers.
After Russian forces occupied most of Mariupol, members of the Azov Battalion and different Ukrainian preventing forces had been holed up within the Azovstal metal plant – their final stand within the besieged metropolis. For their very own security, Ukraine’s authorities inspired them to give up to Russian forces. They had been imprisoned for months however not too long ago many had been a part of a prisoner alternate and now have tales to inform. We hear a type of tales.
On this episode:
- Krzysztof Dzieciolowski, award-winning freelance journalist, movie director and founding father of Imaginative and prescient Home
- Alina Panina, Ukrainian border guard and former prisoner of warfare
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Full episode transcript:
This transcript was created utilizing AI. It’s been reviewed by people, however it would possibly include errors. Please tell us when you've got any corrections or questions, our electronic mail is TheTake@aljazeera.internet.
Halla Mohieddeen: Earlier than we begin this episode, we need to invite you to subscribe to our present. Simply search for Al Jazeera’s The Take in your favorite podcast app, and we’ll be in your ears thrice per week. Thanks.
[THEME MUSIC PLAYING]
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: We spoke to Alina in Kyiv, We started to speak about life.
Halla Mohieddeen: That’s Krzysztof Dzieciolowski, a Polish journalist. He not too long ago met with Alina Panina, a Ukrainian girl who was a prisoner of warfare.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: And we talked about her canine, the love of her life.
Halla Mohieddeen: Krzysztof has been working with Al Jazeera for years and his chat with Alina was not his first task in Ukraine.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: My historical past of Ukraine is a reasonably lengthy one. I imply, I began going to Ukraine in 2001, 2002.
Halla Mohieddeen: However for this task there have been no bombs falling, no photographs fired. It was simply Chris, Alina and the Al Jazeera crew sitting down in a restaurant. And but the violence and trauma are nonetheless onerous for him to shake.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: That is nonetheless very painful, and I all the time really feel humbled and privileged once I speak to individuals like that.
Halla Mohieddeen: Quickly after the Russian siege on the Ukrainian port metropolis of Mariupol, Alina Panina, a Ukrainian border guard and canine coach was taken prisoner. That was in Could. Months later, she was launched and spoke with Chris.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: After what she’s gone by means of, it’s nonetheless gonna take in all probability loads of time for her to understand what truly occurred to her.
Halla Mohieddeen: I’m Halla Mohieddeen and that is The Take.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: It feels just like the PTSD’s been stabilised.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: She will sleep by means of the evening once more, greater than a month after she’s been launched, however she’s nonetheless having flashbacks. She’s nonetheless residing by means of what she’s gone by means of. She’s not in all probability able to revisit a few of these horrors.
Halla Mohieddeen: When Chris met Alina for the primary time. It was quite a bit like getting along with any acquaintance or perhaps a shut good friend.
[SOUNDS OF RESTAURANT]
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski Does she need her espresso there?
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: We agreed to a restaurant the place we had a quiet nook the place we might speak to her. What was placing to me, is that she had a model new iPhone, that she had a model new Apple watch,
Halla Mohieddeen: Simply days in the past, Alina was given a prestigious medal from the Ukrainian navy.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: After which in among the movies that she posted on her Fb, she was taken to a hairdresser for a therapeutic massage. It definitely seems to be just like the wellbeing of these prisoners could be very a lot on the highest of the agenda.
Halla Mohieddeen: The factor is she had already paid a heavy value.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: Those that went to the depths of hell are actually handled with respect. And it seems there may be willingness to compensate for the horror they went by means of.
Halla Mohieddeen: Nevertheless it’s not simply new private electronics and glossy medals. As Alina sat throughout from Chris, he additionally seen hints of what occurred in her current previous.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: She was accompanied by a man from the border guard unit.
Halla Mohieddeen: A member of the border guard’s press service. Chris was additionally advised Alina was taking anti-anxiety remedy. And she or he was delivered to the restaurant from what amounted to a prisoner of warfare rehab facility.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: They usually had been enterprise psychological remedy.
Halla Mohieddeen: However how did Alina get out of jail?
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: Effectively, Alina was half of a bigger, POW swap.
Newsreel: It’s probably the most vital prisoner swap for the reason that warfare started.
Halla Mohieddeen: Only a yr in the past, she was residing in a small city within the western a part of Ukraine. Driving a bus throughout the Polish border for work and coaching her canine.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: However then she received a job on the border with Poland, together with her sniffer canine.
Alina Panina (translated): I served within the border guard.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: She had two personal canine that she took together with her to the service. She’s a really eager canine coach.
Halla Mohieddeen: And that was her life. Coaching canine, guarding the border.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Halla Mohieddeen: After which she was moved to Mariupol.
Alina Panina (translated): And, on the finish of 2021, my fiancé and I moved to Mariupol and I served within the port as a part of the Donetsk border guard.
Halla Mohieddeen: Alina and her boyfriend, that they had a pleasant life for a few younger individuals. Good jobs, canine, and love. Then got here February 23.
[SOUNDS OF BOMBING]
Alina Panina (translated): And I used to be on responsibility within the port and there was a large shelling bombardment.
[SOUNDS OF BOMBING]
Newsreel: The strategic port metropolis subjected to indiscriminate assault.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: They had been taken unexpectedly. They didn’t know the invasion was nearly to occur.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Alina Panina (translated): Russians ships had been approaching the port carefully. You would say that they had been making an attempt to harass us, enjoying with us. Ships got here shut after which sailed again, repeatedly. Then, someday after lunch, it was 16pm (14:00 GMT). That’s when our chief of division advised us we’d be shifting to a manufacturing facility.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: They began to maneuver out of the port and so they engaged in a battle, as I perceive. They engaged in a battle in numerous services.
Alina Panina (translated): We had been holding the Mariupol defences for roughly two months.
Halla Mohieddeen: Over the course of these months, they had been shifting from manufacturing facility to manufacturing facility, utilizing them as improvised bunkers. They tried to push towards the Russian forces.
Alina Panina (translated): Our push was not profitable. Naturally, it was scary. We had been afraid the planes above would drop some form of bomb if we had been shifting.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: After which she advised me that on April 12, her fiancé moved in a special course along with his unit.
Alina Panina (translated): He was captured.
Halla Mohieddeen: She says her fiancé’s unit saved her life. They saved many lives.
Alina Panina (translated): They principally distracted the enemy. They centered all the consideration on themselves.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: After which they entered the bunkers, the Azovstal metal plant, the barrage of tunnels. After which they had been along with the Azov Battalion.
Halla Mohieddeen: And it wasn’t simply Azov. Many forces joined them within the tunnels. Why? As a result of Mariupol is that essential, Chris says.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: I used to be in Mariupol in 2014 and 2015. And it was a hotspot. It's strategically positioned on the southern-eastern a part of Ukraine and it was essential for the Russian navy aims. And I see this warfare as one other chapter of a for much longer historical past.
Halla Mohieddeen: In 2014, the time Chris is speaking about, Russia made its first try on Mariupol, having simply seized the Crimean peninsula.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: And their aspirations or ambitions, had been to create the hall that hyperlinks mainland Russia with Crimea and Mariupol is strategically positioned simply Proper there within the center, so, it got here as no shock to all of us that, that Russians tried to seize this city very early on through the warfare.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Halla Mohieddeen: So now, Alina was there, hiding out within the Azovstal metal plant with all these different Ukrainian armed forces. They turned the Russian goal.
Newsreel: And for the previous few days, it’s been the scene of heavy preventing as Russian forces tried to seize the final pocket of resistance on this strategically essential metropolis.
Alina Panina (translated): That manufacturing facility was fired upon with the whole lot that they had. It was aviation, rockets launched from the ocean, tanks. Later, the infantry arrived.
Halla Mohieddeen: What was already a nasty state of affairs received worse. The metal plant was in ruins. Alina was residing beneath. The precise plant was too bombed out.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: She was telling me initially that they had two sources of water. That they had ingesting water and so they had industrial water. Midway by means of, the drinkable water simply got here to an finish. After which all that they had left was this industrial leakage that was obtainable for them to drink. She noticed loads of lifeless our bodies, loads of lifeless our bodies of her work colleagues, from the border guard unit. The situations had been completely dire.
[UKRAINE NATIONAL ANTHEM PLAYING]
Halla Mohieddeen: However their patriotism stood robust. There's a video with Alina and the others singing Ukraine’s nationwide anthem, her hand on her coronary heart and her canine Sonya tucked below her arm.
Alina Panina (translated): And because the infantry was shifting in, it was lowering our numbers.
Halla Mohieddeen: And that’s when Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy stepped in.
Alina Panina (translated): And an order from the President of Ukraine was given, that we now have to grow to be prisoners, to save lots of our personal lives.
Newsreel: These fighters from the Azov Battalion tried to defend the metal plant in Mariupol and stop Russian troopers from fully taking up the port metropolis, however outnumbered and overpowered, Ukraine says its mission to defend the plant is over.
Alina Panina (translated): He accepted the Geneva Conference and based on its guidelines we had been taken prisoner.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: And so Alina was one of many very first few individuals who got here out of these dungeons into the sunshine.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Alina Panina (translated): I used to be within the first group. We had 30 individuals from the border guard and 30 individuals from Azov. Everyone went out in numerous teams. We went out to a bridge. That’s the place the enemies had been. They usually had been armed, and holding their place.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: And she or he recalled that she felt fully powerless after which helpless. Swiftly, she didn’t have a gun.
Alina Panina (translated): And there we had been strolling on the market with solely our private belongings, those that had them. A few of us didn’t even have that.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: She left the bunker, alongside together with her canine Sonya. She was freaking out. It’s gonna be an execution, she felt. That is the tip of it.
Alina Panina (translated): It was scary, since you’re going with out the armoured vest, helmet, with out your weapon, you don't have anything. And as you go, the enemy has its gun on you. And it’s not just one enemy, there have been so a lot of them. You don’t know when you’re going to be captured or they will simply shoot you proper there on the spot in the event that they don’t like one thing. It was scary.
Halla Mohieddeen: There’s footage of Alina strolling out..
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: After which we will see Alina in a pink t-shirt.
Alina Panina (Translated): They checked us
Halla Mohieddeen: However not Sonya. Sonya stayed behind.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: Her canine was taken away from her, after which she was presenting all her belongings to Russian troopers like everyone else.
Alina Panina (translated): They put us on buses and took us to Olenivka.
Halla Mohieddeen: It was one of many hardest issues that had ever occurred to her. However now, speaking about it, she appears resigned.
Alina Panina (translated): It was scary. It’s life.
Halla Mohieddeen: What was life like serving months as a Russian prisoner of warfare? That’s after the break.
Halla Mohieddeen: After the Russian siege of Mariupol, Alina Panina, a Ukrainian border guard and canine coach, was taken prisoner of warfare. A number of months later, she was launched as a part of a prisoner swap and he or she advised Al Jazeera producer Krzysztof Dzieciolowski what occurred once they surrendered to Russian forces.
Alina Panina (translated): Once we entered the territory, men and women had been break up up.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: The place did the Russians take you then?
Alina Panina (translated): The fellows had been within the two story barracks with out bars, with regular home windows and beds with metallic springs, similar to within the military. The ladies had been positioned in a single room, like in a jail. The room had bars on the home windows and 6 cabinets with a picket mattress bolted to the wall. There have been 28 individuals within the room.
Halla Mohieddeen: Different accounts have it at 4 beds however nonetheless 28 individuals in a room. Chris requested how they had been in a position to sleep like that.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: How did you reside there?
Alina Panina (Translated): Two ladies might sleep on a shelf directly, all the relaxation simply slept on the ground.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: The place did you sleep?
Alina Panina (translated): On the ground.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: Have been you interrogated by the Russians?
Alina Panina (translated): Sure
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: Have been you tortured?
Alina Panina (translated): They did numerous various things to us. They'd exert psychological strain. They'd swear at us. They did different issues, I cannot describe them.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: Are you able to clarify any extra?
Alina Panina (translated): No, I can’t.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: Simply typically?
Alina Panina (translated): Basically phrases, we had totally different experiences. The women had a special expertise than the boys. However I don’t like going into element on this.
Newsreel: Regardless of Russian denials, others have claimed torture was commonplace.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Halla Mohieddeen: Chris has been a journalist for years. He’s lined wars and plenty of different traumas, however he discovered it troublesome to listen to Alina speak about her experiences, and to see the very actual impression her incarceration continues to have on her to this present day.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: Later after the interview, within the automobile, she advised me that she didn’t wanna break down. She didn’t wanna come throughout as a crying girl. No, I imply, she felt it was essential to not get teary, to not cry. She had a narrative to inform, however for quite a few totally different causes, additionally for safety causes, for the protection of her personal boyfriend, she didn’t need to reveal an excessive amount of. She additionally felt that if she’s gonna say an excessive amount of, which will backfire on those that are nonetheless in captivity. So, it’s a really delicate interview and what you placed on air can be very delicate as a result of you may see how a lot this type of an interview can have a butterfly impact on many different lives, on lives of many or different individuals. I imply, she’s been to hell and he or she’s out of hell.
Halla Mohieddeen: However there are issues she did say.
Alina Panina (translated): I used to be scared, since you’re afraid you simply received’t go residence to the individuals you’re closest to. You’re afraid of not seeing them or listening to them. In fact, I used to be scared. On a regular basis there felt like per week.
Alina Panina (translated): I'll let you know that there are people and there are not-humans. Even in captivity, some present mercy towards you, attempt to assist with one thing, convey cleaning soap for instance or communicate with out aggression. And a few don’t deal with women and men in a different way. They deal with you equally. We’re not killers. We had been defending our land, defending our residence and our individuals. We didn't come to them, they got here to us. And we had been imprisoned as a result of we stood for what’s ours.
Halla Mohieddeen: On the finish of July, there was an explosion at that detention facility.
Newsreel: Dozens of Ukrainian prisoners of warfare had been killed.
Halla Mohieddeen: Dozens had been killed. Russia says it was attributable to Ukrainian missiles. Ukraine, Alina and satellite tv for pc imagery point out it got here from inside the power.
Alina Panina (translated): We heard screams and canine barking. However we didn’t see something, as a result of we solely had these two small home windows. The following day, wounded had been delivered to us, into our constructing. The fellows who had been wounded in that place after which the ladies tried to deal with the injuries.
Halla Mohieddeen: Zelenzkyy says it was the deliberate mass homicide of prisoners of warfare.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: As soon as she advised me an important telephone name she might make from jail was a name residence, so she rang her mum simply to say she was okay. She knew that the telephone was tapped and the Russians had been listening to the entire dialog. So all she needed to say is simply that she’s fantastic. And she or he was reassuring her mom. I’m gonna be again residence. And for her, probably the most soothing expertise was calling her mom.
Halla Mohieddeen: However, all through the darkish days of her seven month lengthy captivity, she advised Chris she by no means misplaced religion.
Alina Panina (translated): We knew that Ukraine wouldn’t abandon us. In fact, we additionally knew we needed to undergo that difficult interval, and we needed to persevere. We all the time mentioned we’re robust, we will do it, our kinfolk are ready for us again residence and for the sake of them you are able to do this, you may face all the challenges. And we did it and thank god we had been returned to Ukraine.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: Do you keep in mind the prisoner swap day?
Alina Panina (translated): On the October 1, we had been taken into Russia itself. To a high-security jail.
Halla Mohieddeen: Alina says they had been taken on a airplane, however indirectly. There was cease after cease.
Alina Panina (translated): We didn’t actually perceive the place we had been going. They simply sat us on a truck, lined us with a tent and drove us. And we began seeing indicators like “Kherson”, and ”Melitopol,” then we realised we had been shifting within the course of Zaporizhya, into the gray space, the place the prisoner swaps are executed. It was superb to see our automobiles, once they had been driving us over the bridge. You sit there, taking a look at our Ukrainian automobiles driving. Women had been crying and laughing, singing the nationwide anthem. There was one second, when their navy was standing on our proper and we had been passing by, all the ladies had been passing by, and their navy couldn’t even look us within the eyes. They simply lowered their eyes to the bottom and that’s it. It signifies that Ukrainian ladies are stronger than their males. Women stood by means of it.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: How did you're feeling on that day?
Alina Panina (translated): The very first thing I wished to do is to name my residence, hear mother and inform her that I’m residence and in Ukraine. Simply to listen to my mother and father’ voices, my kinfolk’ voices. That is an important factor that you've, you cherish it and you'll go for it and battle for it.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: What occurred to your fiancé?
Alina Panina (translated): He’s been imprisoned since April 12. He hasn’t known as as soon as. He’s on the checklist. His seize was confirmed, however I don’t know the place he's.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: He’s nonetheless captured?
Alina Panina (translated): Sure.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: No reference to him?
Alina Panina (translated): Nothing.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Halla Mohieddeen: And it’s not simply her fiancé she’s lacking now.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: Her canine had been taken away by the Russians, throughout one of many transfers. As she’s realized, the canine are actually working as sniffer canine for the Russians in Donetsk.
Halla Mohieddeen: And the Russians are asking for a ransom to be paid.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: She’s presently actively pursuing an choice of recovering her canine.
Halla Mohieddeen: And her plan now she says.
Alina Panina (translated): To start with, to take again all of our boys from captivity. Then, to take again my canine that had been taken from me by the Russians. However, I like this job, it doesn't matter what occurs or what I am going by means of, I nonetheless need to keep within the service.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: They’re gonna be taken to a different place. Like a well being spa someplace they’re within the mountains the place they’re gonna undertake one other month of remedy.
Halla Mohieddeen: So, it’s not over but, and the warfare is just not over but both. She hopes that some political answer will be reached, however these hopes are dwindling, she admits.
Alina Panina (translated): With a lot blood spilled and folks killed, it should by no means be the identical once more.
Halla Mohieddeen: Chris says her launch shouldn’t be taken as an indication that the tip of the warfare is nigh.
Krzysztof “Chris” Dzieciolowski: I don’t assume that the tip of the warfare is coming anytime quickly. However I’m not a future storyteller in that sense. And in all equity, again on February 23, many people and the journalists didn’t assume that a warfare of such a scale was going to unfold within the japanese nook of Europe. So, how can I inform whether or not the warfare’s gonna come to an finish or not? So, let’s see by means of the winter. I imply, there are a lot of elements to this puzzle, so fingers crossed for peace. However a prisoner swap is just not an indication of peace but, in my thoughts.
Halla Mohieddeen: No matter occurs, Alina says there may be not an individual who left captivity together with her who is just not utilizing sedatives and sleeping capsules. And there are a lot of, many individuals, together with her fiancé, even her canine, who're nonetheless being held prisoner at the moment.
Alina Panina (translated): I believe that we’ll by no means have it as earlier than, when Russians and Ukrainians had been, as they used to say, one individuals. The perspective that individuals have now could be totally different. It received’t be forgotten in a yr or two, what Russia did right here.
Halla Mohieddeen: And that’s The Take. This episode was produced by Amy Walters with Chloe Ok. Li, Negin Owliaei, Ashish Malhotra, Alexandra Locke, Ruby Zaman, and me, Halla Mohieddeen. Our sound designer is Alex Roldan. Our engagement producers are Aya Elmileik and Adam Abou-Gad and our head of audio is Ney Alvarez. We’ll be again.
Episode credit:
This episode was produced by Amy Walters with Chloe Ok. Li and our host, Halla Mohieddeen. Ruby Zaman fact-checked this episode. Our manufacturing group contains Chloe Ok. Li, Alexandra Locke, Ashish Malhotra, Negin Owliaei, Amy Walters, and Ruby Zaman. Our sound designer is Alex Roldan. Aya Elmileik and Adam Abou-Gad are our engagement producers. Ney Alvarez is Al Jazeera’s head of audio.
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